Achaean News
re: The Chrysalis Basilica's stance on Chaos
Written by: The Spawn of the Unnameable Saruman
Date: Monday, March 25th, 2002
Addressed to: Pentharian, the Righteous
Ah, Lord Pentharian speaks out! It is indeed a pleasure to hear from
such a high authority of the Church setting the record clear. I shall
put forth a brave foot and take disagreement with what You say, though,
and explain the reasoning behind it. Specifically, I dissent on the
claims that Chaos destroys this realm, that it does not create, and that
the this world was perfect before Chaos entered it. I shall explain this
using known facts and real examples instead of using analogies like
acidic buildings since analogies represent something made up in the
mind, not actual reality; that is of course further from the truth than
an actual real world example. Recall that analogy can not be considered
"evidence", unlike actual example and real statistics, and is thus an
less valid way to prove a point.
Before I go into this I need to explain that Creation is not creation.
It is a poor choice of words but we are stuck with it. The word
"Creation" refers to this realm even though it is not the entirety of
"creation" which consists of at least two realms: this one and the Chaos
realm. So I will refer to "Creation" as "this realm" for clarity.
Unlike some of my compatriots, I have never advocated such a belief that
all things were created through Chaos. I have even quarrelled with my
own guild elders on occasion with this very topic. (Though this is not
to say Chaos isn't now a part of all things, a topic I will not go into
for this post.) It is made clear that creation flows forth from the
Logos, and that Chaos is an aspect of that creation. But this does not
mean Chaos is anathema to creation since, as is clearly stated by the
Logos when we mortals are granted renewed life and is clearly stated in
the history books, Sarapis created Chaos. Thus it is a part of creation
even if it was not originally part of this world.
You correctly point out that Chaos entering this realm nearly destroyed
this realm, but some may have been mislead into thinking Chaos is the
opposite of creation. Bear in mind that this realm is not all of
creation. And in fact it is believed by the authors of the history books
that this realm of Chaos and our realm both have to exist in order for
the other to exist. Therefore, Chaos is likely a cornerstone of
creation. To destroy Chaos entirely could very well destroy creation
itself! But the point of this example You state is that Chaos once was
known to destroy this realm and that when the Unnameable entered it was
only through the intervention of Ayar that this realm survived. It is
true that Ayar had to intervene, but let's move from that point in the
past and work our way to the present since this is now, not then. Chaos
was harmful to this realm but Ayar merged the two and somehow made them
compatible. Being omnipotent, why didn't He banish the Chaos beings back
to their realm? Instead he chose to disperse the energies of Chaos into
this realm somehow making them compatible, and even went so far as to
create the god Babel to patron Chaos. Now to modern day times, if Chaos
and this realm are entirely incompatible then clearly the presence of
Eris in this realm would make it cease to be. Note that in modern times
the Logos has not done anything to lessen the power of this
manifestation of Chaos. Therefore, irregardless of how Chaos entered
this realm, it is the will of the Logos that it remains here, as much a
part of this realm now as anything else. Something that was pure
destruction to this realm in the past is not necessarily the case now.
Secondly, I contend that Chaos can create, and that the only way to
remove Chaos is to uncreate. When Chaos and this realm mixed it created
something new: humans. If Chaos is so destructive, then how did it
create a new race? Chaos even created a goddess to patron itself, Eris.
And thus to eliminate Chaos you would also have to uncreate the human
race and Eris Herself.
Thirdly, You claim that this world was perfect before Chaos entered it.
Clearly this ultimately depends on one's definition of "perfect" which
would thus make it ultimately an opinion. (For those interested, more
can be read on the matter of logic and definitions through my winning
bardic thesis that shows logic is in fact a manifestation of Chaos.) I
would contend that the world was imperfect then as it was incomplete.
This realm had only a portion of creation, not all of it. The Chaos
creation was separated. Now that they have mixed, this world now
contains more of creation than it did before the rift. Thus it has been
made more perfect by my view. And on a lighter note, a world of 100%
order and structure with no human creativity is rather boring. Well,
that piece just my opinion; maybe some people find that stimulating and
exciting. 😉
Finally, You say Chaos leads to madness and insanity. This is true! But
I ask all those mortals who fight Chaos if they truly know what it means
to be mad, to be insane? Have you ever considered the possibility that
to those who experience insanity, as you call it, that perhaps it is you
who seems insane? Ultimately, stating that insanity is a lesser state of
being than sanity is merely an opinion. There are many who would
disagree, but one can not prove nor disprove either. Perhaps the only
thing that can be said is that they are different states of mind. And on
a side note so that I can give a specific example, the one mortal who
was able to let Chaos permeate her being more than any other has been
able was transformed into a deity through the power of Chaos. So clearly
stating that opening up ones being to pure Chaos is a bad thing for
one's self must contend that ascending into a deity is bad for the self,
specifically that Servelan was lessened when she became Eris. Clearly
only a clouded mind could agree with that a mortal who ascends into
godhood is lessened.
So in summary, Chaos and this realm are made compatible in some manner
by the will of the Logos, and Chaos has been allowed to stay by the will
of the Logos. Chaos does in fact create. It also makes this world less
imperfect than before since before the rift this world contained only
half of creation. And finally, opening the mind to Chaos in its entirety
is not necessarily bad nor good (though I am personally quite fond of
it), but rather different.
Now I will make a digression on another topic that is more directed
towards the Church in general about good and evil. I will likely not
respond since good and evil are topics that interest me very little. But
I am curious what people have to say on this topic, on both the sides of
good and evil, so shall leave this for them to duke out. It has been
well established that evil and Chaos are two entirely different things.
Thus evil could not have entered this realm from Sarapis' other
creation, the Chaos realm, since it is not Chaos. Thus it must have been
created as a part of this realm. And created by the Logos it most
certainly was since He says to us when we are granted new life that He
created it. If you go by Pentharian's idea of perfection, that this
world is perfect if it is as it was in the beginning even though it was
only a partial creation, then this world would be imperfect if evil was
eliminated. In fact, if it were eliminated then you would be destroying
an aspect of this world which on face value would seem hypocritically
the exact opposite reason it has been stated that the Church thinks it
should fight Chaos. So why do you people seek to destroy evil since to
do so would be to destroy an aspect of this world thus rendering it
imperfect by Pentharian's definition?
-Saruman.
Penned by my hand on the 17th of Mayan, in the year 301 AF.
re: The Chrysalis Basilica's stance on Chaos
Written by: The Spawn of the Unnameable Saruman
Date: Monday, March 25th, 2002
Addressed to: Pentharian, the Righteous
Ah, Lord Pentharian speaks out! It is indeed a pleasure to hear from
such a high authority of the Church setting the record clear. I shall
put forth a brave foot and take disagreement with what You say, though,
and explain the reasoning behind it. Specifically, I dissent on the
claims that Chaos destroys this realm, that it does not create, and that
the this world was perfect before Chaos entered it. I shall explain this
using known facts and real examples instead of using analogies like
acidic buildings since analogies represent something made up in the
mind, not actual reality; that is of course further from the truth than
an actual real world example. Recall that analogy can not be considered
"evidence", unlike actual example and real statistics, and is thus an
less valid way to prove a point.
Before I go into this I need to explain that Creation is not creation.
It is a poor choice of words but we are stuck with it. The word
"Creation" refers to this realm even though it is not the entirety of
"creation" which consists of at least two realms: this one and the Chaos
realm. So I will refer to "Creation" as "this realm" for clarity.
Unlike some of my compatriots, I have never advocated such a belief that
all things were created through Chaos. I have even quarrelled with my
own guild elders on occasion with this very topic. (Though this is not
to say Chaos isn't now a part of all things, a topic I will not go into
for this post.) It is made clear that creation flows forth from the
Logos, and that Chaos is an aspect of that creation. But this does not
mean Chaos is anathema to creation since, as is clearly stated by the
Logos when we mortals are granted renewed life and is clearly stated in
the history books, Sarapis created Chaos. Thus it is a part of creation
even if it was not originally part of this world.
You correctly point out that Chaos entering this realm nearly destroyed
this realm, but some may have been mislead into thinking Chaos is the
opposite of creation. Bear in mind that this realm is not all of
creation. And in fact it is believed by the authors of the history books
that this realm of Chaos and our realm both have to exist in order for
the other to exist. Therefore, Chaos is likely a cornerstone of
creation. To destroy Chaos entirely could very well destroy creation
itself! But the point of this example You state is that Chaos once was
known to destroy this realm and that when the Unnameable entered it was
only through the intervention of Ayar that this realm survived. It is
true that Ayar had to intervene, but let's move from that point in the
past and work our way to the present since this is now, not then. Chaos
was harmful to this realm but Ayar merged the two and somehow made them
compatible. Being omnipotent, why didn't He banish the Chaos beings back
to their realm? Instead he chose to disperse the energies of Chaos into
this realm somehow making them compatible, and even went so far as to
create the god Babel to patron Chaos. Now to modern day times, if Chaos
and this realm are entirely incompatible then clearly the presence of
Eris in this realm would make it cease to be. Note that in modern times
the Logos has not done anything to lessen the power of this
manifestation of Chaos. Therefore, irregardless of how Chaos entered
this realm, it is the will of the Logos that it remains here, as much a
part of this realm now as anything else. Something that was pure
destruction to this realm in the past is not necessarily the case now.
Secondly, I contend that Chaos can create, and that the only way to
remove Chaos is to uncreate. When Chaos and this realm mixed it created
something new: humans. If Chaos is so destructive, then how did it
create a new race? Chaos even created a goddess to patron itself, Eris.
And thus to eliminate Chaos you would also have to uncreate the human
race and Eris Herself.
Thirdly, You claim that this world was perfect before Chaos entered it.
Clearly this ultimately depends on one's definition of "perfect" which
would thus make it ultimately an opinion. (For those interested, more
can be read on the matter of logic and definitions through my winning
bardic thesis that shows logic is in fact a manifestation of Chaos.) I
would contend that the world was imperfect then as it was incomplete.
This realm had only a portion of creation, not all of it. The Chaos
creation was separated. Now that they have mixed, this world now
contains more of creation than it did before the rift. Thus it has been
made more perfect by my view. And on a lighter note, a world of 100%
order and structure with no human creativity is rather boring. Well,
that piece just my opinion; maybe some people find that stimulating and
exciting. 😉
Finally, You say Chaos leads to madness and insanity. This is true! But
I ask all those mortals who fight Chaos if they truly know what it means
to be mad, to be insane? Have you ever considered the possibility that
to those who experience insanity, as you call it, that perhaps it is you
who seems insane? Ultimately, stating that insanity is a lesser state of
being than sanity is merely an opinion. There are many who would
disagree, but one can not prove nor disprove either. Perhaps the only
thing that can be said is that they are different states of mind. And on
a side note so that I can give a specific example, the one mortal who
was able to let Chaos permeate her being more than any other has been
able was transformed into a deity through the power of Chaos. So clearly
stating that opening up ones being to pure Chaos is a bad thing for
one's self must contend that ascending into a deity is bad for the self,
specifically that Servelan was lessened when she became Eris. Clearly
only a clouded mind could agree with that a mortal who ascends into
godhood is lessened.
So in summary, Chaos and this realm are made compatible in some manner
by the will of the Logos, and Chaos has been allowed to stay by the will
of the Logos. Chaos does in fact create. It also makes this world less
imperfect than before since before the rift this world contained only
half of creation. And finally, opening the mind to Chaos in its entirety
is not necessarily bad nor good (though I am personally quite fond of
it), but rather different.
Now I will make a digression on another topic that is more directed
towards the Church in general about good and evil. I will likely not
respond since good and evil are topics that interest me very little. But
I am curious what people have to say on this topic, on both the sides of
good and evil, so shall leave this for them to duke out. It has been
well established that evil and Chaos are two entirely different things.
Thus evil could not have entered this realm from Sarapis' other
creation, the Chaos realm, since it is not Chaos. Thus it must have been
created as a part of this realm. And created by the Logos it most
certainly was since He says to us when we are granted new life that He
created it. If you go by Pentharian's idea of perfection, that this
world is perfect if it is as it was in the beginning even though it was
only a partial creation, then this world would be imperfect if evil was
eliminated. In fact, if it were eliminated then you would be destroying
an aspect of this world which on face value would seem hypocritically
the exact opposite reason it has been stated that the Church thinks it
should fight Chaos. So why do you people seek to destroy evil since to
do so would be to destroy an aspect of this world thus rendering it
imperfect by Pentharian's definition?
-Saruman.
Penned by my hand on the 17th of Mayan, in the year 301 AF.